This is the truth of hetero relationships with men and always has been. This is just the first lifetime that women can validate the BS worldwide with the internet AND have the agency to choose single life. I don’t expect them to change and I’m not invested in that desire solely because I’m not stuck with one. I’m a single mom of 2 and my children and I thrive with just us. I don’t want the chaos and energy drain of a man around. I do wish for more community with women though.
Interesting that you find fault with the woman who chose to leave a bad situation, and not with the man who treated her badly and actually ‘broke’ the family.
How do you know she broke up the family. Bit of an assumption on your part. My abusive partner walked out on his family in search of fresh meat. Aren’t there others sites more suited to your needs to be cruel to women where you will obtain a more receptive audience.
Thanks for this article! I am all for calling this out and not ever doing the “men, amiright?” ever again. It lets this insane behavior off the hook too easily.
I think it’s telling that folks come here to distinguish themselves from the “bad men”mentioned in your article, by listing chores they do or ways they’re doing well. Honestly, that’s wonderful, good for them, I don’t want to attack anyone, and I’m glad their wives have their partnership and support. The larger point still stands that it’s culturally acceptable for men to be willfully ignorant of most or all that goes on in a home, or with a partner’s health, mental state, etc.
I married a “good, feminist guy,” in part because I was a believer in the “just choose better” approach, and of course, to the extent that you can find the feminists, definitely go with them! But even my wonderful feminist husband still has some serious blind spots conditioned into him by an upbringing in THIS shitty world, and the conversations and growth have only continued, as we constantly grapple with how the patriarchy infects our home.
If we were measuring, he’d be on the top 0.1% of husbands, but that’s not because he’s so special (I mean, I think he’s a special and lovely person), he’s just a regular guy, willing to listen and grow. MEN CAN DO THIS VERY BASIC THING - giving a shit about their partners! The reason he ranks so “high” is that there’s an unsettling number of husbands who abuse their wives, who neglect their wives, who are willfully blind to their struggles, and so on. Whenever I mention that my husband and I share the chores equally between us, I don’t want people to think he’s a unicorn - I want people to know that’s actually the bare minimum to even be in a partnership, or be a respectful roommate for that matter!
I think there’s a way to hold two things together - some men really are working hard to unlearn this crap, AND most aren’t. That’s why we have to call this out, not as an “attack on men,” but as a “wait a second, this is not normal!!”
I wrote a little bit about this in my last post, but that performative male allyship is deeply troubling - and look how quickly they're willing to turn the moment you don't treat them the deference they feel like they deserve! Which is one of the reason "good feminist guys" often turn out not to be as "good" as women think they will be as a relationship unfolds over time.
I feel similarly that I have what most people think is an exceptional situation, when all they're witnessing is that my husband treats me with basic dignity and shows a commitment to learning and growing throughout our relationship. It's hard to establish that as the baseline though, when our expectations are rooted in normalizing male incompetence and emotional inequity.
I found my amazing and really generous boyfriend only after many many years of dating men who would have made for terrible husbands, and telling myself that's how it's supposed to be.
I'm starting to think that there might be more women who want marriage and kids, out there, than there are men who would make for non-neglectful, attentive, kind, patient and loving fathers and husbands. If this is true, what are the women who want a good marriage, but cannot find a husband decent enough to do his share of the laundry and cooking, supposed to do? Live the rest of their lives grieving the dream of having a family, or live the rest of their lives feeling vaguely abandoned because of their partner's neglect? This is a genuine question that I have, because I would like to be able to give advice to my women friends on the situation, but I kind of don't know what to say.
My platonic best friend and I were semi-seriously considering finding a sperm donor and raising kids together. We both ended up finding lovely men that we really like and that would make for responsible dads.
I think this is a good and genuine question, because the way men are socialized hasn't caught up to the demands of modern relationships. I think one of the shifts we're seeing culturally (which is causing a lot of political backlash) is rethinking the nuclear family as the only option for childrearing/family. Feminist thinkers have been suggesting this for decades - turning toward more supportive ways of living that center women and mutual care. Women coming together to raise children platonically, poly family structures, communal setups are all ways we can rethink the false dichotomy of hetero-marriage or single parenting as our only options.
The thing with patriarchy is it centers men’s needs and wants over children’s. Men, consciously or not, do not want to lose that privilege. They refuse a paradigm shift that centers children (and therefore women/mothers) because it would require they contribute to be welcome, not just be “head of household” because they are the father/husband.
But let’s be clear! It centers *some *men’s needs—MOsT men would benefit from a more communal structure! But capitalism doesn’t! I’m not trying to be reductive, but most men are totally fucked over by patriarchy, if we consider the big picture. Yes they fare better than women, but they still lose.
Honestly, I think there are men who are actually able to see through their programming. We have to figure out how to market it to them though. In a way that is better than shame. Not dissing this article, it's spot on and an instant subscribe moment. But my Substack is dedicated to how my husband and I renegotiated the terms of our lives together. I think there is more possibility in growth for many men than they even know about themselves. So we have to get them deprogrammed from the "I have been this way my whole life" thing even being a flex. That's not a flex dude, that's a fate worse than death. Not everyone will be able to grow together the way my husband and I did, but I hope that whoever is capable of doing the work required will find us and heal faster than we did. Sadly, I think men not being readers on average is an issue, it makes it a need to somehow battle the red-pill content on YouTube to get their attention before it's too late for the younger ones. For the older ones already in relationships, it is going to be their desire to stay married that will force them to re-evaluate.
I think of my writing space (here, at least) as primarily for cultural criticism, and not the education of men. I agree that there are men who are able to change and grow, and if they want that for themselves, there are plenty of places for them to get the necessary education. Oftentimes it's within supportive partnerships where they are equally committed to showing up -- as seems to be your case, and mine as well. But I also think that men should be able to withstand women's rage, especially in spaces (like these) that are not designed for them to be centered. If they want a bit of hand holding, there are spaces for it -- but part of the growth process is recognizing where and when that is appropriate. This comment section ain't it.
I'm sorry if you feel like my thoughts were inappropriate here. I'm glad you also have a supportive partner. I know there are more of them out there and hope that we can gain more allies. I'll see my way out.
I apologize for the length of this comment. What a passionate, articulate, brave read. There isn't a thinking woman alive who can't resonate with your essay. I'm 76 and very proud of you and the many young women like you. Sometimes, acknowledging rage and speaking from that place is what is necessary. Yes, the backlash you feel is real: "No one wants to listen to an angry woman." "Poor men, they try so hard, and the women are never satisfied," etc. The monstrous legislation against women controlling their bodies is part of the backlash. But that means that we women, and significantly you younger women, are affecting the first tremors in the foundation of patriarchal intractability.
In my generation, many of us worked to move beyond patriarchal constraints. We refused to vow to obey at our weddings. We kept our names. We left marriages to otherwise good men who did not or would not bear a fair share of the emotional and physical burden of maintaining a home and raising our children. And yes, we were punished in many ways, "Why can't my daughter keep a man?" "Why did you leave if he didn't beat you?" There are hundreds of examples. Our work continued the work of our mothers before us. We got legislation passed. Before my mother's time, it was unthinkable that a woman would vote. And yet, progress seemed so slow it appeared nonexistent. But there was progress nonetheless. It was not and is not satisfactory.
Through it all, women wept from not being heard and not being supported, as in your article, but like you, they chipped away at the next thing. My mother died in childbirth because she was physically incapable of navigating nine pregnancies. My father seemed to me, a child of 13, to only appreciate her after she died of neglect and physical strain. She died of placenta previa, a pregnancy complication that often results from having too many pregnancies. The placenta attaches to the wall of the uterus, and hemorrhaging occurs. (Let me finish in the reply below)
What women like you have done is monumental. You have created a cultural movement shaking family structures that privilege men. Many young men in my extended family realize their buddies are being held to account and that accountability is becoming a new normal. This is happening all over. Many young women are saying new things, such as, "My husband had a vasectomy because I was clear with him that I'm not willing to continue bearing responsibility for the size of our family alone."
For me, when I feel rage, I'm grateful. It's telling me that something in my life is wrong, and I have to deal with it. Your anger is not all of who you are, but it may be what meets the moment.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. What a powerful statement: anger is not all of who you are, but it may be what meets the moment. Yes, I certainly hope it will. I, too, am grateful for my rage. I find it clarifying, energizing and necessary for the sustained effort to create change.
And these are the men who, being divorced in the future, will say, “And one day she just got up and left for NO REASON!” Yeah all the reasons she screamed at you for 15 years were frivolous to you and so are considered “no reason.” That’s how much women’s feelings matter to men.
I think that women leaving 'for no reason' tells us something about communication skills. I don't believe that men simply don't care about their wives' feelings. Rather, it is more likely that they honestly don't understand what she is trying to say. Talking about 'emotional load' is baffling. Asking him to cook dinner is clear.
Clear communication is good as a beginning point; I give men credit to be able to graduate into more subtle perceptions as time goes on. Dads & Moms can continue to work with our boys & teenagers in making discernment a priority in our close relationships. See Owen W.’s comment below!
It feels more and more common for women in hetero marriages to fantasize about divorce — not because they want to get divorced. Not at all. But because with split custody (even amidst the potential emotional wreckage of an uncoupling) they would get a fucking break. And the father would finally feel, in his solo time, how heavy the load is. Maybe. Some of my divorced friends have exes who return the children unrested, unbathed, and with school calling because the homework hasn’t been turned in. Not all. But some.
I’m a 57 year old husband and father of two. The following chores are mine and have been for the last 24 years. Vacuum whole house, clean all bathrooms including toilets and showers, do the dishes if my wife cooks, if I cook I also do the dishes, do my own laundry. I’m also the one who takes care of the house and yard. This
is because my wife had an incredibly difficult, time consuming and stressful job in the world of finance. My job is much less stressful and I can generally leave it at work.
I got up at night and fed the babies or put them back to sleep and since I’m in education anything that had to do with school was my responsibility, such as homework.
The point I am trying to make here is my wife made it perfectly clear that she wouldn’t put up with any bullshit very early on in the relationship. If you are not going to be a partner in this then I walk now but also if you’re a dick in the future, I think were her words.
I am far from perfect but I do believe marriage is a partnership. The thing is that the signs of a man who doesn’t believe in a true partnership are very obvious at the start. In other words why do women marry men like the ones you describe, because I do know a lot of men who have been married 20 or 30 years who are always doing their part for the marriage. They are good husbands, fathers and partners.
I have also know many assholes who believed their “part” was being the breadwinner. Most of them are divorced, some for a second time. But it was obvious these guys were assholes, it wasn’t something they could hide or fake for a few months before the woman said yes.
There's a lot of social conditioning behind it, more discussion of that below in the comments. "Don't choose bad men" is an incomplete solution, obvious as it may seem.
It puts the onus on the woman and then it is her fault if she chooses badly. No one is perfect but treating anyone as a slave day in day out is clearly wrong and why does this go on?! There's no need for it.
Also, why lies the responsibility to educate men and draw up boundaries or walk in the women? Why didn‘t you at the start of the relationship and other men see her stressful job and took responsibility to balance the emotional and physical labor from the beginning . Instead waiting to be told to do it? I think it is wrong to put the blame on women and not hold other male friends, brothers, cousins, sons accountable and say to them WHAT THE FUCK?!
I’m pretty sure you documented my last (and I do mean last) marriage. I justified and overlooked the neglect and apathy because at least he didn’t hit me or lie to me or abandon me, right?
I tore my bicep, jacked up my rotator cuff, AND tore a shoulder ligament at work. I had surgery and couldn’t even wipe my own butt. I asked for the floor to be vacuumed because I hadn’t been able to for several weeks. I was told by my husband that was a want not a need. He flat out refused.
I honestly believed that was just how he was so I told the story to my physical therapist. The reaction it caused was not aw shucks but wtf. I was mortified that I’d accepted that behavior because after all, he loved me, right?
Five years later, I’m happily single and living my best life.
This article hurt because I did this. I bought into it. I accepted it as truth. I’m ashamed I was there, but proud that I learned to love and respect myself enough to fly solo.
I'm so proud of you for braving the unknown to step into a life that gives you dignity. You should not feel ashamed for what our entire culture groomed you to accept (regardless of the "nice guy" assholes in the comments saying cHoOsE bEtTeR mEn). Congratulations on your new life. You deserve it.
From my experience, this is a form of domestic abuse. To be so cruel to someone he supposedly loves, it is punishing, controlling, and manipulative. Weaponized incompetence. Today I often have girlfriends remind me when going on a date, “kind is a baseline expectation, it doesn’t make him a 10.”
How we raise boys to become men is the ultimate question. Because we lack a universal approach to this, we are left with the default approach each unique parenting unit espouses.
I believe the definition of manhood has to incorporate empathy as a key value. If men are taught though to disregard their “feelings” -which would relegate them as lesser men, how will this change?
Are we taught to validate our own feelings first or disregard them in order to be “real” men?
This is the beginning of how a lack of empathy becomes standard procedure in raising boys to men.
I believe this is a huge part of the problem. True empathy requires you to lead from your heart, and look around and see if that is being taught across the different avenues of learning in societies. Let’s start with a new consensus on not disregarding the feelings as being second in importance to one’s thoughts- I believe that might be the first step.
Yes, and I think raising a new generation of men in healthy masculinity requires dads to do some really difficult inner work, even though it might be totally uncharted territory for them.
There's some good discussion of that in the rest of the comments. I wish it were as easy as just leaving a bad situation. Or that good/bad marriages were so easily defined.
Yeah. I was married to "that guy" years ago. Left him when I realized my (male) friend was kinder to me than the a**hole who said he loved me. Been married to the "friend" for almost 20 years now. And he's an amazing, kind, observant, thoughtful partner. Rare, I know, but I'm grateful I found him.
This does NOT go for women in abusive relationships. For those who aren't in abusive relationships, here's the thing - women are trained that the worst thing in the world is to be a "bitch" or be angry, "unlikable", to engage in open conflict. Gotta get over that.
We must be willing to deal with the conflict, friction and blowback until we negotiate a new reality. My relationship was inequitable to MY favor pre-Kid. Post-kid+Covid was whiplash and I've talked to many friends who find a weird "traditional roles" enter the relationship post-kid. For a while, i was calling myself the Hausfrau and getting bitter as hell. I was exhausted but eventually marshalled the resources to fight back again. We're in good place now but there was a valley of sheer ugly to get here.
Your husband doesn't know how long it took to plan camp? TELL HIM. Inform him you can't do pickup just like he informs you. Institute one person cleans, one person cooks. Set nights to switch off for dinner and be OK if he just gets pizza on his nights. etc. Just stop asking like you are begging a 2 year old to use the potty or asking the king to grant you a gold coin. Handle it like you would at work because running a household is WORK.
Yes, be prepared for the struggle, rolled eyes, pushback, comments, whatever it is. You don't have to spend a month doing Fair Play index cards. The day-to-day conflict may be harder but it is more effective and you will negotiate to a different and more equitable relationship on the other side—or break up.
I’ve found that my two husbands were clueless as to what needed to be done and if they did what I asked, they did a shitty job hoping I wouldn’t ask them again. God forbid they just did it without being asked and not expect me to thank them for doing it. I will admit I’m a bad picker. I chose a negligent man in my first marriage and an abusive cheater in my second. All I wanted was a family. A happy, sweet family. Now I’m about to be twice divorced and living my best life alone. Kids are grown. Just me and my dog. No more yelling, blaming, disappointment, neglect, betrayal. I’m a sweet, sassy woman who would be a great partner to the right man, but I don’t think the man for me will ever cross my path and I guess I’m ok with that.
This is the truth of hetero relationships with men and always has been. This is just the first lifetime that women can validate the BS worldwide with the internet AND have the agency to choose single life. I don’t expect them to change and I’m not invested in that desire solely because I’m not stuck with one. I’m a single mom of 2 and my children and I thrive with just us. I don’t want the chaos and energy drain of a man around. I do wish for more community with women though.
Energy drain. Right there it is. Why do relationships with men suck the life out of us?
Great! You broke up your family, and you're proud of it!
Wow. Way to prove the article’s point.
No one wants to break up their family. Trust me. It’s so painful. But turns out it’s better.
I blocked that guy.
Same
Interesting that you find fault with the woman who chose to leave a bad situation, and not with the man who treated her badly and actually ‘broke’ the family.
What the fuck dude; can you read?
Reading comprehension is hard for you, isn't it? 🙄
How do you know she broke up the family. Bit of an assumption on your part. My abusive partner walked out on his family in search of fresh meat. Aren’t there others sites more suited to your needs to be cruel to women where you will obtain a more receptive audience.
Duh - her ex was the one who broke the family by being a POS.
This article is enraging in its unflinching exposure of the truth. WHAT THE FUCK indeed. Thank you for writing this so beautifully.
Thanks for this article! I am all for calling this out and not ever doing the “men, amiright?” ever again. It lets this insane behavior off the hook too easily.
I think it’s telling that folks come here to distinguish themselves from the “bad men”mentioned in your article, by listing chores they do or ways they’re doing well. Honestly, that’s wonderful, good for them, I don’t want to attack anyone, and I’m glad their wives have their partnership and support. The larger point still stands that it’s culturally acceptable for men to be willfully ignorant of most or all that goes on in a home, or with a partner’s health, mental state, etc.
I married a “good, feminist guy,” in part because I was a believer in the “just choose better” approach, and of course, to the extent that you can find the feminists, definitely go with them! But even my wonderful feminist husband still has some serious blind spots conditioned into him by an upbringing in THIS shitty world, and the conversations and growth have only continued, as we constantly grapple with how the patriarchy infects our home.
If we were measuring, he’d be on the top 0.1% of husbands, but that’s not because he’s so special (I mean, I think he’s a special and lovely person), he’s just a regular guy, willing to listen and grow. MEN CAN DO THIS VERY BASIC THING - giving a shit about their partners! The reason he ranks so “high” is that there’s an unsettling number of husbands who abuse their wives, who neglect their wives, who are willfully blind to their struggles, and so on. Whenever I mention that my husband and I share the chores equally between us, I don’t want people to think he’s a unicorn - I want people to know that’s actually the bare minimum to even be in a partnership, or be a respectful roommate for that matter!
I think there’s a way to hold two things together - some men really are working hard to unlearn this crap, AND most aren’t. That’s why we have to call this out, not as an “attack on men,” but as a “wait a second, this is not normal!!”
I wrote a little bit about this in my last post, but that performative male allyship is deeply troubling - and look how quickly they're willing to turn the moment you don't treat them the deference they feel like they deserve! Which is one of the reason "good feminist guys" often turn out not to be as "good" as women think they will be as a relationship unfolds over time.
I feel similarly that I have what most people think is an exceptional situation, when all they're witnessing is that my husband treats me with basic dignity and shows a commitment to learning and growing throughout our relationship. It's hard to establish that as the baseline though, when our expectations are rooted in normalizing male incompetence and emotional inequity.
My wife watches the reality dating shows and listens to podcasts deconstructing them, and we joke that the bar for men gets lower every year.
We should not accept the low standards as normal. Men can be better. Our son will be better for sure.
I found my amazing and really generous boyfriend only after many many years of dating men who would have made for terrible husbands, and telling myself that's how it's supposed to be.
I'm starting to think that there might be more women who want marriage and kids, out there, than there are men who would make for non-neglectful, attentive, kind, patient and loving fathers and husbands. If this is true, what are the women who want a good marriage, but cannot find a husband decent enough to do his share of the laundry and cooking, supposed to do? Live the rest of their lives grieving the dream of having a family, or live the rest of their lives feeling vaguely abandoned because of their partner's neglect? This is a genuine question that I have, because I would like to be able to give advice to my women friends on the situation, but I kind of don't know what to say.
My platonic best friend and I were semi-seriously considering finding a sperm donor and raising kids together. We both ended up finding lovely men that we really like and that would make for responsible dads.
I think this is a good and genuine question, because the way men are socialized hasn't caught up to the demands of modern relationships. I think one of the shifts we're seeing culturally (which is causing a lot of political backlash) is rethinking the nuclear family as the only option for childrearing/family. Feminist thinkers have been suggesting this for decades - turning toward more supportive ways of living that center women and mutual care. Women coming together to raise children platonically, poly family structures, communal setups are all ways we can rethink the false dichotomy of hetero-marriage or single parenting as our only options.
The thing with patriarchy is it centers men’s needs and wants over children’s. Men, consciously or not, do not want to lose that privilege. They refuse a paradigm shift that centers children (and therefore women/mothers) because it would require they contribute to be welcome, not just be “head of household” because they are the father/husband.
But let’s be clear! It centers *some *men’s needs—MOsT men would benefit from a more communal structure! But capitalism doesn’t! I’m not trying to be reductive, but most men are totally fucked over by patriarchy, if we consider the big picture. Yes they fare better than women, but they still lose.
Just for context, I’m a woman who just decided it was necessary to leave her husband. We have three kids.
I have 4 daughters and I need to tap out! I wasn’t made for this.
Honestly, I think there are men who are actually able to see through their programming. We have to figure out how to market it to them though. In a way that is better than shame. Not dissing this article, it's spot on and an instant subscribe moment. But my Substack is dedicated to how my husband and I renegotiated the terms of our lives together. I think there is more possibility in growth for many men than they even know about themselves. So we have to get them deprogrammed from the "I have been this way my whole life" thing even being a flex. That's not a flex dude, that's a fate worse than death. Not everyone will be able to grow together the way my husband and I did, but I hope that whoever is capable of doing the work required will find us and heal faster than we did. Sadly, I think men not being readers on average is an issue, it makes it a need to somehow battle the red-pill content on YouTube to get their attention before it's too late for the younger ones. For the older ones already in relationships, it is going to be their desire to stay married that will force them to re-evaluate.
I think of my writing space (here, at least) as primarily for cultural criticism, and not the education of men. I agree that there are men who are able to change and grow, and if they want that for themselves, there are plenty of places for them to get the necessary education. Oftentimes it's within supportive partnerships where they are equally committed to showing up -- as seems to be your case, and mine as well. But I also think that men should be able to withstand women's rage, especially in spaces (like these) that are not designed for them to be centered. If they want a bit of hand holding, there are spaces for it -- but part of the growth process is recognizing where and when that is appropriate. This comment section ain't it.
I'm sorry if you feel like my thoughts were inappropriate here. I'm glad you also have a supportive partner. I know there are more of them out there and hope that we can gain more allies. I'll see my way out.
I apologize for the length of this comment. What a passionate, articulate, brave read. There isn't a thinking woman alive who can't resonate with your essay. I'm 76 and very proud of you and the many young women like you. Sometimes, acknowledging rage and speaking from that place is what is necessary. Yes, the backlash you feel is real: "No one wants to listen to an angry woman." "Poor men, they try so hard, and the women are never satisfied," etc. The monstrous legislation against women controlling their bodies is part of the backlash. But that means that we women, and significantly you younger women, are affecting the first tremors in the foundation of patriarchal intractability.
In my generation, many of us worked to move beyond patriarchal constraints. We refused to vow to obey at our weddings. We kept our names. We left marriages to otherwise good men who did not or would not bear a fair share of the emotional and physical burden of maintaining a home and raising our children. And yes, we were punished in many ways, "Why can't my daughter keep a man?" "Why did you leave if he didn't beat you?" There are hundreds of examples. Our work continued the work of our mothers before us. We got legislation passed. Before my mother's time, it was unthinkable that a woman would vote. And yet, progress seemed so slow it appeared nonexistent. But there was progress nonetheless. It was not and is not satisfactory.
Through it all, women wept from not being heard and not being supported, as in your article, but like you, they chipped away at the next thing. My mother died in childbirth because she was physically incapable of navigating nine pregnancies. My father seemed to me, a child of 13, to only appreciate her after she died of neglect and physical strain. She died of placenta previa, a pregnancy complication that often results from having too many pregnancies. The placenta attaches to the wall of the uterus, and hemorrhaging occurs. (Let me finish in the reply below)
What women like you have done is monumental. You have created a cultural movement shaking family structures that privilege men. Many young men in my extended family realize their buddies are being held to account and that accountability is becoming a new normal. This is happening all over. Many young women are saying new things, such as, "My husband had a vasectomy because I was clear with him that I'm not willing to continue bearing responsibility for the size of our family alone."
For me, when I feel rage, I'm grateful. It's telling me that something in my life is wrong, and I have to deal with it. Your anger is not all of who you are, but it may be what meets the moment.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. What a powerful statement: anger is not all of who you are, but it may be what meets the moment. Yes, I certainly hope it will. I, too, am grateful for my rage. I find it clarifying, energizing and necessary for the sustained effort to create change.
Terribly sad about your mum 💔💔💔. I’m sorry.
And these are the men who, being divorced in the future, will say, “And one day she just got up and left for NO REASON!” Yeah all the reasons she screamed at you for 15 years were frivolous to you and so are considered “no reason.” That’s how much women’s feelings matter to men.
I think that women leaving 'for no reason' tells us something about communication skills. I don't believe that men simply don't care about their wives' feelings. Rather, it is more likely that they honestly don't understand what she is trying to say. Talking about 'emotional load' is baffling. Asking him to cook dinner is clear.
I recommend clear communication.
You being baffled because you don't understand that a meal needs to be prepared without being explicitly told...kind of the problem dude.
I recommend not being a condescending arsehole.
Clear communication is good as a beginning point; I give men credit to be able to graduate into more subtle perceptions as time goes on. Dads & Moms can continue to work with our boys & teenagers in making discernment a priority in our close relationships. See Owen W.’s comment below!
It feels more and more common for women in hetero marriages to fantasize about divorce — not because they want to get divorced. Not at all. But because with split custody (even amidst the potential emotional wreckage of an uncoupling) they would get a fucking break. And the father would finally feel, in his solo time, how heavy the load is. Maybe. Some of my divorced friends have exes who return the children unrested, unbathed, and with school calling because the homework hasn’t been turned in. Not all. But some.
I’m a 57 year old husband and father of two. The following chores are mine and have been for the last 24 years. Vacuum whole house, clean all bathrooms including toilets and showers, do the dishes if my wife cooks, if I cook I also do the dishes, do my own laundry. I’m also the one who takes care of the house and yard. This
is because my wife had an incredibly difficult, time consuming and stressful job in the world of finance. My job is much less stressful and I can generally leave it at work.
I got up at night and fed the babies or put them back to sleep and since I’m in education anything that had to do with school was my responsibility, such as homework.
The point I am trying to make here is my wife made it perfectly clear that she wouldn’t put up with any bullshit very early on in the relationship. If you are not going to be a partner in this then I walk now but also if you’re a dick in the future, I think were her words.
I am far from perfect but I do believe marriage is a partnership. The thing is that the signs of a man who doesn’t believe in a true partnership are very obvious at the start. In other words why do women marry men like the ones you describe, because I do know a lot of men who have been married 20 or 30 years who are always doing their part for the marriage. They are good husbands, fathers and partners.
I have also know many assholes who believed their “part” was being the breadwinner. Most of them are divorced, some for a second time. But it was obvious these guys were assholes, it wasn’t something they could hide or fake for a few months before the woman said yes.
This is what baffles me.
There's a lot of social conditioning behind it, more discussion of that below in the comments. "Don't choose bad men" is an incomplete solution, obvious as it may seem.
It puts the onus on the woman and then it is her fault if she chooses badly. No one is perfect but treating anyone as a slave day in day out is clearly wrong and why does this go on?! There's no need for it.
Also, why lies the responsibility to educate men and draw up boundaries or walk in the women? Why didn‘t you at the start of the relationship and other men see her stressful job and took responsibility to balance the emotional and physical labor from the beginning . Instead waiting to be told to do it? I think it is wrong to put the blame on women and not hold other male friends, brothers, cousins, sons accountable and say to them WHAT THE FUCK?!
I’m pretty sure you documented my last (and I do mean last) marriage. I justified and overlooked the neglect and apathy because at least he didn’t hit me or lie to me or abandon me, right?
I tore my bicep, jacked up my rotator cuff, AND tore a shoulder ligament at work. I had surgery and couldn’t even wipe my own butt. I asked for the floor to be vacuumed because I hadn’t been able to for several weeks. I was told by my husband that was a want not a need. He flat out refused.
I honestly believed that was just how he was so I told the story to my physical therapist. The reaction it caused was not aw shucks but wtf. I was mortified that I’d accepted that behavior because after all, he loved me, right?
Five years later, I’m happily single and living my best life.
This article hurt because I did this. I bought into it. I accepted it as truth. I’m ashamed I was there, but proud that I learned to love and respect myself enough to fly solo.
Thank you.
I'm so proud of you for braving the unknown to step into a life that gives you dignity. You should not feel ashamed for what our entire culture groomed you to accept (regardless of the "nice guy" assholes in the comments saying cHoOsE bEtTeR mEn). Congratulations on your new life. You deserve it.
Thank you. I felt seen by your words.
As for the choose better men comments. I would if they weren’t unicorns. 😑
From my experience, this is a form of domestic abuse. To be so cruel to someone he supposedly loves, it is punishing, controlling, and manipulative. Weaponized incompetence. Today I often have girlfriends remind me when going on a date, “kind is a baseline expectation, it doesn’t make him a 10.”
💥💥💥💥
How we raise boys to become men is the ultimate question. Because we lack a universal approach to this, we are left with the default approach each unique parenting unit espouses.
I believe the definition of manhood has to incorporate empathy as a key value. If men are taught though to disregard their “feelings” -which would relegate them as lesser men, how will this change?
Are we taught to validate our own feelings first or disregard them in order to be “real” men?
This is the beginning of how a lack of empathy becomes standard procedure in raising boys to men.
I believe this is a huge part of the problem. True empathy requires you to lead from your heart, and look around and see if that is being taught across the different avenues of learning in societies. Let’s start with a new consensus on not disregarding the feelings as being second in importance to one’s thoughts- I believe that might be the first step.
Yes, and I think raising a new generation of men in healthy masculinity requires dads to do some really difficult inner work, even though it might be totally uncharted territory for them.
Hard agree Gemma, this is disgusting behaviour. Shape up or ship out. (I know it's not simple or easy to leave.....).
There's some good discussion of that in the rest of the comments. I wish it were as easy as just leaving a bad situation. Or that good/bad marriages were so easily defined.
We need a Fitbit for male household contributions...it would be sobering, I'm sure...
Yeah. I was married to "that guy" years ago. Left him when I realized my (male) friend was kinder to me than the a**hole who said he loved me. Been married to the "friend" for almost 20 years now. And he's an amazing, kind, observant, thoughtful partner. Rare, I know, but I'm grateful I found him.
This does NOT go for women in abusive relationships. For those who aren't in abusive relationships, here's the thing - women are trained that the worst thing in the world is to be a "bitch" or be angry, "unlikable", to engage in open conflict. Gotta get over that.
We must be willing to deal with the conflict, friction and blowback until we negotiate a new reality. My relationship was inequitable to MY favor pre-Kid. Post-kid+Covid was whiplash and I've talked to many friends who find a weird "traditional roles" enter the relationship post-kid. For a while, i was calling myself the Hausfrau and getting bitter as hell. I was exhausted but eventually marshalled the resources to fight back again. We're in good place now but there was a valley of sheer ugly to get here.
Your husband doesn't know how long it took to plan camp? TELL HIM. Inform him you can't do pickup just like he informs you. Institute one person cleans, one person cooks. Set nights to switch off for dinner and be OK if he just gets pizza on his nights. etc. Just stop asking like you are begging a 2 year old to use the potty or asking the king to grant you a gold coin. Handle it like you would at work because running a household is WORK.
Yes, be prepared for the struggle, rolled eyes, pushback, comments, whatever it is. You don't have to spend a month doing Fair Play index cards. The day-to-day conflict may be harder but it is more effective and you will negotiate to a different and more equitable relationship on the other side—or break up.
I’ve found that my two husbands were clueless as to what needed to be done and if they did what I asked, they did a shitty job hoping I wouldn’t ask them again. God forbid they just did it without being asked and not expect me to thank them for doing it. I will admit I’m a bad picker. I chose a negligent man in my first marriage and an abusive cheater in my second. All I wanted was a family. A happy, sweet family. Now I’m about to be twice divorced and living my best life alone. Kids are grown. Just me and my dog. No more yelling, blaming, disappointment, neglect, betrayal. I’m a sweet, sassy woman who would be a great partner to the right man, but I don’t think the man for me will ever cross my path and I guess I’m ok with that.